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    Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

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    Saradkad

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    Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:27 pm

    This is fairly self-explanitory topic, but I was wondering - what are evreyone elses views on it? What will happen, what the US/World should do, ect.?

    Peroonally, I think that these rebellions were bound to happen, and the leaders of this country have to see that they'd have to kill evreyone in their country and start from scratch to even govern effectivley after all this, and that we should help protect the protesters as needed, and help them set up a goverment of their choosing. I can't stress that enough.

    jlnaginey

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  jlnaginey on Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:02 pm

    It's also times like this that I wonder about the ethics of trying to kill one person. I think it is generally considered unethical and something that shouldn't be done - but would killing just the "bad guy" save lives or create more chaos? I guess it's complicated. I wish it was like the Wizard of Oz where melting the witch caused an immediate change in attitude from the flying monkeys!
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:55 pm

    But in response to the ethics of trying to kill one person - it's more of a do the ends qualify the means question. Can we stoop to assasination? In my mind, he/they are evil, killing them will improve the lives of thousands+, and there is no real change then from killing a soldier on the battlefield. This guy is all but saying "I'm horrible! Kill me!" The ends qualify the means.

    And I object that flying monkey comment! We happen to worship Elphaba just the same - that movie showed our evil cousins that take after those talking trees.

    jlnaginey

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  jlnaginey on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:32 am

    I tend to agree with you, I think - in fact I think I would argue that it is MORE justified than killing a soldier on the battlefield who may have nothing to do with anything other than wanting to protect his home and way of life. And talking trees are the awesomist!
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:00 pm

    I think we should to as much as we can to enable the populace to take down Gaddafi on their own, and go after his military bases and things to sort of sabotage his power, if not actually take him out of power. The ethisc of killing one person are complicated... The goal should be 'getting him out of the way", not necessarily assassination.
    How about affiliates? We were talking about this on the way to school and my dad said he thinks they should bomb everywhere in Tripoli where he might be. I said "And everyone else?" and he said "Well, pretty much everyone there is on Gaddafi's side/in his military, so taking them out too would be okay." That reminded me of the Nuremberg trials a bit (we're accusing you because you worked for Hitler, even though you're not Hitler, that sort of thing.) Thoughts?
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:26 pm

    I think that "dropping bombs" is not a good idea - we just need to get rid of (however you spell his name)! It's must more justfiable then killing a soldier, someone who, 99.5% of the time, has nothing to do with killing and dictatorship. You could call sinking to assasination "dirty" or "low", but this is war, because there have been exsplosions, guns, air skirmishes, and probably some deaths. Doing something bad is better than wasting lives and time to so something good.

    Also, I heard news people worrying about how many other countries we will "free" due to this new "Obama doctrine." I would like to argue that we are in Lybia because the people rebelled, repeat, the people rebelled, and we are aiding them. While we should be running over to places like Norht Korea ans rescuing all those people, and we should have done that when these dictatorships started, not becoming allys with them (see Egypt), we have not done so. And will not.

    And the talking trees are horrible!
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:39 pm

    Doing something bad is better than doing something good? Shouldn't we do our best to do good at all costs?

    Exactly. We help the rebellions when they happen (maybe not instigate them, but we do support these countries becoming free). What did they have a problem with about more countries becoming free? Do the Fox News reporters like dictatorships or something?

    And WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST ENTS?!
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    Rafiki

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Rafiki on Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:59 pm

    Jacob, 99.5% of the time is a quite large exaggeration. Not saying that everyone who fights for a bad cause is a heartless evil guy. But a fair amount of support that tyrants get is from people who agree with them--at least in the beginning. Keep in mind that most 'evil' people in history have been able to speak forcefully and convincingly.

    If we were to assassinate Gadhafi, we wouldn't bring an end to the war. There are enough people in Libya for one of them to step up and take his place--Gadhafi did promise a 'long war'.

    Ahem. I have a feeling you heard Fox news, not 'news people'. And the conflict in Libya is not just about 'helping the people'. As your dad said, Gadhafi is a terrorrist, and has killed numerous Americans. If it had been just about 'helping the people', we would've done it in Egypt.

    And Emma, how could we 'take him out of the way' without killing him? I repeat, Gadhafi promised a 'long war'. And about your dad saying that we should just bomb everywhere in Tripoli where he might be, it's kind of like a little kid trying to cover up all the holes in the game 'Whack-a-mole'. It, eventually, solves the problem, but it takes too much time, resources, and we would be killing innocent people. (Wait--I just realised I was talking about Whack-a-mole when I said 'killing innocent people'. Nevermind--I didn't make that analogy.)
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:57 pm

    Yes, it usually takes a lot of support to get into power. Once you're there, and then you start doing bad things, is when the revolutions happen.

    @Jacob: http://www.cnn.com/

    *lol* That is fairly awesome. *makes mental note not to let small children play games involving killing innocent people*
    Ideally we'd accuse him of something-or-other, get a UN arrest warrant, and stuff him in jail somewhere. But he would still have supporters ready to take his place...

    By the way, have I squeed at your avatar yet? If not, *squee*
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:43 pm

    I think I hust typed up two essays, and pressed "BAckspace" at the wrong time and deleted them. I'll keep my replies simple out of sheer weariness.

    What do you guys have against Fox? Most news networks I know of are the basic same thing - get a good story, argue with decsisons in power, spend too much time with stupid celebrties drug crsis.

    Assasinating (however you spell his name) would solve the problem because he has no V.P., no-one to stand up and take his place. Even if there was no power struggle, a day of chaos could mean one less month of bloodshed. And likely, there will be a power struggle.

    My 99.5% is reffering to people being caught up in the meat grinder between two goverments power struggles, as they didn't make the decsion. They are innocent and likely have a lot in common with eachother, ecept they are fighting and killing for two diffrent people.

    I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ENTS, ONLY OZIAN TALKING TREES WHO THROW APPLES!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Rafiki

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Rafiki on Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:50 pm

    Bahaha! Computers hate you, Jacob.

    I wonder--how many news companies do you actually listen to? Your dad listens to Fox, (which is highly bigoted) but have you ever listened to other news reports? And how do we know about the conflict in the middle east and Libya? BECAUSE THE NEWS COMPANIES TOLD US. The very same news companies that you said only talk about celebrity's inner lives.

    Just because GADHAFI (It honestly would take less time if you just spelled out his name rather than saying 'however you spell his name'. What a poor attempt to appear incapable of spelling.) doesn't have a Vice President, that doesn't mean there are scores of people dedicated enough to take his place the moment he would be asassinated.

    1)The rebels are not a government, they are only fighting to overthrow Gadhafi, then create a better government than that which they would overthrow.
    2)I assume the people you are reffering to, then, are the citizens who are forced to fight and die? (If not, you need to make your meaning plainer.) Many of the countries around Libya are welcoming and helping refugees. Nearly all of these people are fleeing for their lives, and, in some cases, so that they aren't coerced into service in an army. So, very few of those in the armies are not actually wanting to fight for the cause which they ARE fighting for.
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:15 pm

    My point remains, even though news componies have reported the events. THESE DICTATORSHIPS WERE OPERATING FOR DECADES, AND THE COUNRTY THAT IS SUPPOSEDLY THE ROLE MODEL OF ALL FREE COUNTRIES HAD NO NEWS PROGRAMS MAKING EVEN A SLIGHT REFRENCE! That includes CNN, as I have watched that one for a while. And I'm starting to watch a news program that ACCTUALLY REPORTS NEWS!!!! It's called Link Tv. But still, what proff do you have that FOX is "highly bigoted?" Not saying it isn't, just asking for proof.

    You say "scores of people willing to take his place." Scores of people who want to be at the top in a dictatorship tend to not get along well, and even if the leadership position amoung scores of people is resolved in a manner of days, days is all you need to get going in a war. Days could mean the diffrence between victory and defeat.

    Something I would like to say - Gaddafi (happy now?) deserves to die. On Link Tv, they had a segment where a rebel had been shot in the back. He was driven by an ambulance driver to the nearest hospitol, who promised to do the best they could for him, but said they might have to sens him to the next hospitol, becuase Gaddafi had taken their medical supplies.There is war, playing dirty, and horror stories out of fiction books, and this is the later.

    1. I'm talking about U.S/NATO (or whoever is in charge at any given hour) vs. Gaddafis forces.
    2. I'm talking about our people enforcing a no-fly zone, civilians bomed for NO REASON, about a man WHO WANTS ONLY INDEPENDENCE BEING SHOT IN THE BACK, HOSPITOLS BEING RAIDED TO DENY SUPPLIES! I'm talking about 99.5% of people who have noc choices, who are just playing follow the leader, and have their lives torn apart by an insane di'kut who deserves anything coming for him as long as it ends in death.

    I apalogize for my exsessive use of CAPS-LOCK and grim scenarios, but it's all true. I'll make a forum about comic strips to balance it out.
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:56 pm

    Jacob, I have 8 letters for you: G-L-E-N B-E-C-K. Just sayin'.

    And? There's still the question of whether the new government will really be democratic or not, or whether it will be like Rwanda all over again.

    NOBODY "deserves" to die*. Not unless they are in so much pain that life is torture. A person is not defined by the sum of their actions.
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:50 pm

    I'm surrendering on FOX news. Could someone just give me concreate examples for my own curiosity?

    Who cares if it will be demorcatic? IT's what the people want. If they say "We want a communist dictatorship of doom (or something along those lines), then I'd say "Well, I'd go for a democratic democracy of peace, but if you want this, it's your choice." It's their decision to make.

    If a person cannot be defined by the sum of their actions, what can they be defined by? Their non-existant holy spirit that will rise up to the non-exsistant holy heaven and live with the non-existant holy god? Even in that scenario, Gaddafi would (and a whole lot of other unholy sinners) sink to the non-existant un-holy hell.
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:28 pm

    Ugh, I'll get you an example later. In the mean time, why do you keep capitalizing "Fox"?

    Just because the citizens used to be "oppressed" doesn't mean they are all innocent. Modern anarchy (especially the anarchy following the takedown of a regime via civil war) is largely a disorganized power struggle*, and that's probably what's going to happen. Any wannabe dictator lurking in the ranks of the army or the rebels could easily take advantage of that situation.

    People are defined by their "essence"/"soul", that is, their personality/identity. Most of us express our selves using our actions, but you can't judge a person by their actions alone. And you can't judge anyone at all to say they deserve to die, because that is not possible. That would be like assigning a worth to a person's self, and as easy as that would be, the world isn't like that. People (people as in sentient beings, not just humans) are beings that must be regarded qualitatively. It's not easy, but it's the nature of a 'being'. You can't value one person above or below another.


    *if you don't believe me go to Somalia...
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    Saradkad

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Saradkad on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:59 pm

    I'm not saying that oppresed inoccents are nessecarily inoccent, nor am I denying that anarchy is a power strugle. What I'm saying is that, if Gaddafi were to be assasinated, someone wouldn't just say "I'm leader now!", sit down, and get the report from the army genral to coffe. IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. Anyone could take advantage of the situation, but if we're standing by, we'll see that happen, and be able to take appropriate action as judged by the circumstances.

    I would argue that I judge - and always will judge - certain people above others. It's not fair, but we all do it, so we can't denny doing it. Also, we judge certain people below other people. That is just the way we work. If I meet a bully at school (I know of three brothers who fit this description...), it doesn't matter if the bully(s) is a jerk (and they are - exspecially Logan Wood - KILLLLLL!), they are still equal to other humans in theory, but I would be far from willing to do anything for him that would benifit him. I judge him very, very low (dig a trans-earth diameter hole to find out how low) and will not judge him any other way.

    Also, I don't know why I was capitlizing Fox - but it looks cool. FOX! FOX! FOX! FoX! fOX! FOx! FOX! FOX! FOX FOX!
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    Rafiki

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Rafiki on Tue May 17, 2011 6:11 pm

    @Jacob--you ask why we haven't reported on Libya until now? Well, because it didn't affect us until now. Most people don't like hearing about things that don't directly affect their day to day lives. Now, of course, celebrity's lives don't really affect ours, but they sell lots, and that's why most news companies exist--to sell themselves.

    Also, you said earlier that we shouldn't try to influence what happens with Libya after Gadhafi is ousted. Now, you're saying that 'we'll be able to to take appropriate action as judged by the circumstances'? I smell a contradiction...And I have another question...if it doesn't happen by someone saying "Im leader now!", then how does it happen? And it would be far too convenient to just hope that the scores of individuals who are willing to take Gadhafi's place will destroy themselves through power struggles.

    We had an Afghan woman come and speak to us at Park today. She said that, in the roads in Afghanistan, the drivers pretty much make their own rules. Now, obviously, you would encounter some very big problems very fast in that situation. Would it not be the same in an Anarchy?

    @Emma (and Jacob, still)--I would have to say, you may not be able to judge any one person above another, but answer me this--would you value Gandhi above Hitler? Of course you would. Because of their actions.Don't you think a person who devoted their whole life to peace should be valued more than a person who devoted their whole life to killing? And even if you can't judge them on their actions, what about their personalities? Would you not think Gandhi would be just a tiny bit more amiable than Hitler?

    Btw, it's Glenn Beck, not Glen.

    And also, @Jacob, Gadhafi doesn't deserve to die. He deserves to be given a fair trial, put in jail, and HAVE HIS RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY....(emma) tongue It's just a matter of perspective. See, from Gadhafi's viewpoint, he probably believes that the rebels are cruel and inhumane, and deserve to die. He's trying to fight for what he believes to be right, and even if he does sink to terrible levels to achieve his goals, he still is fighting for what he believes. And, on some tiny level, you have to acknowledge (notice I'm NOT using the word respect) that.
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    Rafiki

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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Rafiki on Tue May 17, 2011 6:18 pm

    arrgghh....I just posted that twice...forgive me...
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    Dracotorix
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    Re: Middle-East DIctatorship Rebellions

    Post  Dracotorix on Wed May 18, 2011 3:02 pm

    Never fear Micah-- I have a delete button! (and I know CPR)

    Anarchy (and Libertarians) only work if everyone is trustworthy. I do think we'll get there someday, but for now we are not mature enough; we're not ready. When "war" is an archaic term found only in history books, then I'd deem our species 'mature' and ready to exist in an anarchic society. Until then... bad idea.

    Oh no... Ghandi and Hitler.... let's see. If I were watching a movie and the main character had to chose to save either Ghandi or Hitler, I'd be shouting "Save Ghandi!" from the seats (and then someone would throw popcorn at me until I shut up). But if I was actually in that situation, it might be a little less easy to decide. As a person, I'd much rather save someone who does good than someone who does bad-- but for the sake of the future/future actions, not because one 'deserves' to be saved more than the other. If I were a judge and I had the option to save one or both of them, I'd have to save both. Would I rather live in a world with Ghandi and no Hitler than a world with Ghandi and Hitler (or no Ghandi and Hitler)? Of course. But it wouldn't be my place to make the world that way. Of course I'd want a world with no Hitler, just as Hitler wanted a world with no Jews. But the difference is that Hitler acted on his prejudices, and I say we should give everyone an equal chance regardless of our personal preferences, because people are all equal on the "soul"/"identity" level. So, based on personal preference, I'd much rather have Ghandi. But Hitler, by virtue of being a person, is just as deserving as Ghandi when it comes down to it.

    Psh. See? Glenn Beck can't even spell "Glen"! Razz

    Gadhafi deserves a fair trial, to be put in jail, and to NOT have his rights taken away Razz
    The rebels and Gadhafi are both fighting for what they believe in, AND they're both seen as cruel and inhumane. Acknowledging that would lead to acknowledging the humanity of both, no? And humanity --> rights...

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